How fit? (i.e Vo2max for pipeline?)

[Kookie2]

I want to be able to surf in retirement, but I struggled at a wave Park recently, so I need to train harder.

I need a running speed goal. The easiest way to talk about this seems to be Vo2max, even if it's just through estimated conversions.

So, I think what I want to do is be able to surf Old Man's in Bali on a big day safely.

What level of fitness does that require, do you think?

[jaffa1949]

Don‘t know what you are talking about with Vo2max for Pipeline, fitness for any break in Indonesia involve being able to paddle outafter a wave multiple times, duck diving paddling around the break safely, having aerobic fitness enough to recover to be able to paddle for your next wave among a competitive crowd, being flexible enough to weave through the crowd:
Should your leash break being able to swim to shore and recover and paddle out again.
The Pipeline level is another level again!!!!

Nextquestion what do you rate as a big day??

Can you cope with the Bali non Buket swell jump as a southern ocean swell hit as a surprise and doubles or more all wave heights?

Suggestions, do yoga and Pilates increase your flexibility and muscle conditioning.
Do paddle repetitions to build up paddle fitness.
Recognise that any Bali break can crank a survival set of conditions against you,!
If in doubt don‘t go out
I have had some of the best surfs possible but I have ALSO been seriously humbled on days I thought I had it sweet!

[PipeDreams]

No one knows your fitness like yourself, you just gotta creep your comfort up, being ultra fit would not just mean that you could go out at pipe like the title suggests! Go in conditions you are comfortable in, then get slightly bigger, dont take huge jumps. As Jaffa says, if in doubt don't go out. When I was younger my grandma would say its always better to be 5 minutes late than 50 years early to the next life. The same can be applied here, feels bad walking away from a session but better safe than sorry.
But in terms of exercises lots of paddles duck dives etc. Surf more to build more surf fitness, swimming helps too but only if you surf alongside it.

[Kookie2]

Yeah. All makes sense.
The thing is that I don't get to surf as much as I used to, so I need to train myself with clear actionable goals.

[waikikikichan]

I struggled at a wave Park recently, so I need to train harder.

Exactly what thing(s) did you struggle with at the wave park ?

Paddling ?
Breathing ?
Popping up ?

[oldmansurfer]

surfing requires more than fitness. It requires knowledge of the ocean and waves and being able to judge the conditions and your ability to handle them. You won't learn that too much at a wave park. What I do for fitness besides surfing is to walk fast up hill so that I am out of breath working to keep myself oxygenated and then continue at that rate for as long as I can manage to. I am not sure about the VO2max whatever that is but what I do seems to work for me. This does one important thing is that it gets me used to functioning in a condition where I don't have enough oxygen which seems to happen surfing regularly for me anyway. A super fit Olympic swimmer would have trouble in the ocean at some breaks due to lack of knowledge about current and waves. Understanding the currents and waves where you surf is perhaps more important than fitness. Being able to judge your fitness for those conditions is the key to safety. A wave park is good to train as you can safely assess the currents and waves and other hazards and there will be lifeguards to rescue you should there be a problem. However I understand wave parks are difficult compared to the ocean due to the way the waves are formed makes them break a little different from the ocean. At a wave park the lineups are precise as not much changes other than the size. Perhaps you need to be more precise in your lineups. But I have heard that even the pros have a little trouble at first because the wave is different from the ocean. They have trouble catching the waves so if that's your problem then most likely paddling long distances will help with that

[Kookie2]

All of those.
I was able to improve by breathing to get by.

Popping up is normally alright, but pulling my legs out of the water with a thick wetsuit on felt like pulling my legs out of a thick gel more than water.
That was the worst thing. I need a more explosive pop-up.

[waikikikichan]

Popping up is normally alright, but pulling my legs out of the water with a thick wetsuit on felt like pulling my legs out of a thick gel more than water.
That was the worst thing. I need a more explosive pop-up.

1) What size/type board were you using at the wave park ?

2) How long have you been using a wetsuit ?

3) How long have you been surfing ?

4) How are you popping up ? Can you explain in detail each step you take from being prone to riding stance, as best as you can.

[jaffa1949]

I have good news and bad news…. one of the great joys of Indonesian surf is the freedom from Neoprene no more paddling against elastic compression , a 2mm light vest might only be needed for a sunrise surf that’s the good news.

Bad news incoming waves travel fast with more power than you have encountered in any wave pool , this is both good and bad news,
you need to have wave catching power and skill, but you have more power to enhance what you do on the wave

A thought thrown, wave pool freshwater , less floaty than ocean water

Get yourself fit to match the better surf experience in Indo!!!

[Geezer]

Curious goal….surf old mans when its big. Any reason that’s your target?

Ive been out at old mans many times when its 2x OH or a bit more. Been out with long and short boards. Everything Jaffa said applies. I like old mans when it gets big because the crowd thins out, but fitness matters and its a decent paddle out and usually distinct currents when bigger. Keeping up with the sweep is constant work and big sets regularly come thru breaking well outside so its a dance to find the peak without getting caught inside. I wont go out on those bigger days if my fitness is at all in question - and I get out 3-6x per week year round. So why big okd mans as a target?

[GlassyLinesMP]

Be careful with the sea if you are not used to the ocean, don't take stupid risks like going in when it's 2x overhead if you haven't been in when it's like head high, 1.5x overhead regularly and felt comfortable and in control.

And forget pipeline. Even if you lived next to the sea and were an expert surfer in another country, pipeline is still super heavy, it's the most dangerous wave out there. The pipe contest the other day, two people got pulled out of the water there in like 20 minutes when I was watching, one completely KOd unconscious. It's not a place to be going unless you are a pro.

[GlassyLinesMP]

If you want to build serious fitness for surfing, you need something more specific than running.

You need more strength, muscular endurance and general fitness. This means doing ab work (situps, crunches, lying leg raises), burpees and squat thrusts (these help pop up a lot), pushups. Squats and split squats will help with your leg balance and strength for once you are up on your feet.

Make these exercises into a circuit, 10 reps per exercise. Rest one minute, repeat for 5 rounds. By doing it as a circuit you will also be working fitness similar to what is required for paddling out.

Do a bunch of ab work after, like 300 reps (100 easy things like side bends, 100 medium like crunch then 100 harder lower abs like leg raises). Also start with a solid warmup of running on spot, punching, squats, jumping jacks for 5-10 minutes.

Do that workout near daily, and once it gets easier add more volume (6/7 rounds instead of 5, 500 ab reps at the end). Once you have done this workout a minimum of 4 times per week for 2 months straight, you will certainly be feeling strong at the wave pool and you will be ready to start pushing yourself a bit in the sea.

[waikikikichan]

Old saying " the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. " Jimbo Pellegrine shows if the spirit is willing, it doesn't matter if the body is big ( or the Vo2 max is low )

[jaffa1949]

I think Jim‘s skills and waistline increased at the same rate.

[GlassyLinesMP]

Old saying " the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. " Jimbo Pellegrine shows if the spirit is willing, it doesn't matter if the body is big ( or the Vo2 max is low )

Screenshot 2023-01-19 8.14.37 PM.png

I reckon this guy is very strong, and knows a thing or two about the ocean haha! Also he is likely much fitter than the OP, oddly enough. Look at Sumo wrestlers: very fit, they just eat a hell of a lot so put on weight. But yeah strong spirit is a big equaliser too.

[Kookie2]

Can anyone give me a number for a goal?

[waikikikichan]

Can anyone give me a number for a goal?

How about the V02 number to do an Ironman Triathlon. Do you know who Mark Allen is ? 6-time World Ironman champion. I remember an article back in the 80's/90's where he said surfing the Northshore was one of the hardest things he's ever done.

https://blog.markallencoaching.com/stic ... rt-2-of-2/

[GlassyLinesMP]

Can anyone give me a number for a goal?

TLDR: 10 pullups, 50 pushups, 20 dips. 40 situps in one minute. 30 burpees in one minute.

I was trying to look up relevant stuff about VO2 max, and found this article abstract:

"Five cross-country runners and five competitive swimmers performed a pulling exercise with elastic shock cords and a treadmill run to exhaustion. The mean VO2 max related to lean body mass of the runners was significantly higher than the swimmers on the treadmill (p less than 0.05) while, on the pulling test, the mean VO2 max of the swimmers was significantly higher than the runners (p less 0.01). The maximum heart rates achieved pulling were 95% of the running maximum by runners and 96% by swimmers with no significant difference between them. Their mean oxygen pulse was almost the same for maximal running but the swimmers had a significantly higher oxygen pulse than the runners for maximal pulling (p less than 0.01). The swimmers could reach about 79% of their running VO2 max by pulling while the runners used 53% of their running VO2 max."

source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1858953/

What this means is you need to train pulling to be able to pull well. The swimmers, despite having lower running VO2 max, had way higher effective VO2 max in pulling (in case it's not obvious, surf paddling is a form of pulling). Train pulling with pullups

The same will go for pushing (eg pushing yourself up off the board for popups and duck dives). Train pushing with pushups, situps and dips.

Increasing your running VO2 max will not help you all that much for surfing. Do more relevant training, consistently and frequently and you will reach your surfing goals. If you need numbers, do the circuits I outlined and aim to reduce the rest periods and increase the number of rounds.

Numbers, Very relevant for surfing:
-the number of pullups you can do (eg you can do 5 pullups, aim to get 6 then 7 etc until you can hit 15 or 20 pull ups).
-number of pushups you can do (again compete against yourself; increase your own capacity. Aim to get at least 40 or 50.)
-situps in 1 minute (aim for 40)
-number of dips you can do

The UK navy mine clearance diver pre entry test gives these standards, also very relevant for surfing:
1.5 mile run in under 10 minutes 30 seconds (but recruits struggle with finning if they don't hit 10 or 9:30)
then 8 pullups
then 40 situps in one minute
then 16 dips

For me the pullups and dips are not that difficult, but doing 40 situps in one minute is heavy as is a 1.5 mile run in under 10 minutes.

[GlassyLinesMP]

The UK royal marines pre joining fitness test would also be a good standard to aim for, which consists of:

20 x burpees
30 x sit ups
20 x press ups
1 minute plank

You will have to complete the full PJFT+ circuit three times. On completion of the three circuits, and after a two-minute recovery, you will have to perform one set of five pull ups.

source: https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/careers/ro ... o/pjftplus

[Kookie2]

tdlr; I think the UK royal marines is too easy even for Batu Balong and the UK mine clearers is just the baseline for us!!

Bit of a wake up call. I got 6 pull ups. I think I need a running track to do this properly: about 15mins on the 2.4km run test.

I found this reference for fitness decline in old age. Looks like about a 25% loss from 40-75 years old:


I think "Briskly climbing stairs" is roughly comparable to handling a cleanup set where I am. That means I need to get to triathlon level if I want to surf when I'm retired,
otherwise I'll be limited to longboard days only and even for that I need to keep up my daily run!

tdlr; Ironman level in 20's or longboarding in retirement at best