trouble with fast-jacking waves

[HM17]

I have been surfing about 4 months, 2x a week. Beach break in Hermosa Beach, CA. On small days or inside waves, i can get a good sequence going of paddling in, arch/glide momentarily, then up. But when the waves here get a little bigger (3 feet and up), they jack up to vertical very quickly and there is no time to glide. As soon as i feel the lift it seems i am instantly at the top staring at an air drop and i go over the front. i know people say that is the point at which you have to commit but i can't even see a face to go down because it looks already past vertical. I have tried to get into the wave earlier without success because they go from nothing to vertical so quickly. And when I watch the better guys they aren't dropping from the top--somehow they pop up mid-face and start down the line with no bottom turn (wouldn't be time for one anyway because these waves close too fast). Lots of forum advice says to paddle harder and longer into the wave, but if i take extra paddles it's too late and i get buried. The good surfers look like they just turn and go with only a couple strokes. It feels like there is some timing insight i am missing. (To the extent it's useful, I have a 7' fish with lots of float, but i don't think my issues have anything to do the board). Thanks for any thoughts.

[BoMan]

Have you tried angling your take off? If not, here is a good tutorial!

[HM17]

thanks. i do try to stay angled and with my head facing down the line, but I am sure i don't do a good enough job of keeping the right amount of pressure on the inside rail. so until i get better at that, the result is just that i get tossed at an angle. will try to focus on that

[waikikikichan]

Lots of forum advice says to paddle harder and longer into the wave, but if i take extra paddles it's too late and i get buried.

For most sports most beginners understand the "HOW", but is the "WHEN" and the "WHERE" that separates them from the more advance. Look at what you wrote, "get into the wave". What I believe that advice was, is for you to get up to max speed before the pop up. You can't stay down and go past the "X" pop up point. Not for you to take more paddles after the take off spot.

But I don't adhere to that advice that you read somewhere. First, IMO, someone surfing for only 4 months should not be on a 7'0", should not be on a Fish. That basics you learn riding a bigger board will help you transition to riding bigger steeper waves later on. Transfer of weight front and back, controlling your rail, holding trim, etc.

That said,

And when I watch the better guys they aren't dropping from the top--somehow they pop up mid-face and start down the line with no bottom turn (wouldn't be time for one anyway because these waves close too fast).

If you said no one is making the drops, then fine, since some waves were just not meant to be ridden. Closeout are Closed OUT for any business. But some guys are making the drop. You said they are "pop(ping) up mid-face", BUT looking more closely next time. They are not so much popping up as much as they are falling down back on to the board that falls away down the face. It's basically a controlled jump back onto the board.

By the way, which toy car rolls faster down the hill ? The one facing straight ahead or the one pushed at an angle ?

[Lebowski]

After 4 months of surfing you are still a beginner. Beginners getting pitched in hollow waves is almost always down to weak paddling and possibly poor positioning in my experience. It takes significant time to really build the strength and skills required for jacking waves. There is far less margin for error with positioning, and any lazy paddling will be punished.

Is your board a retro style fish with a wide tail and flat rocker? I ask as these kinds of boards are also difficult to take off on in hollow waves. The high volume tail means the back of the board doesn't sink into the wave (whilst paddling) but rides on top, leaving you facing steeply downhill. Then when you catch it, it's too critical and you fall off.

[HM17]

Thanks all for the advice. We are on the same page that I am very much a beginner with no expectation of performing like the more experienced surfers at this point. But i at least want a game plan when I go out so i can make incremental improvements rather than simply repeat the same mistakes. As for the board, it's not retro but more of a performance model made by a local shop for these waves, That said, it's probably 42-45 liters, so a fair amount of volume (and I am very light). It does feel like I am experiencing the issue Lebowski describes, where the tail does not sink. But i also don't want to get ahead of my beginner status by getting on something with too low a volume (indeed, waikikichan already thinks i have). I have an 8' foam board as well but don't suspect that is going to sink into the waves any better. (By the way, i use the fish over the foam board for three reasons--(1) i get a better feel for the effects of weight transfer on the fish; (2) on a beach break with no channels it is much easier to get the slightly shorter fish under the waves to get out to the back; and (3) it is quicker on the fish to make the turn from facing the wave to paddling for the wave, which allows more flexibility to get into better positions)

[gsseirik]

Where are you positioned on the surfspot compared to the guys making the drops? If you would theoretically sit as close as shoulder to shoulder with a better surfer then you would have your positioning correct. Then it comes down to timing; when to start to paddle and how hard on that exact position of that exact wave. And also where your weight is distributed on the surfboard when you paddle. Are the nose pointing upwards? Are you shifting your bodyweight forward as you begin to drop, or are you pulling back? Make a mark in the wax or put a sticker on so that you know that you are on the balance point when you lie down. And later (or maby already?) you can just feel this sweetspot. You can also try to catch a couple of waves without popping up at all, just to lock in the timing without having too much to worry about at the same time in steeper conditions. But that might be a bit dangerous in bigger conditions to?

If you wan't to give yourself a head start, or give yourself better margins for catching waves, choose a softer wave or a bigger board. You could also continue with the 7'0, but then it will be more critical with timing and positioning. I have gotten a lot of help and made progress from the feedback from all the guys that have already posted replies on your thread:-)

[Naeco78]

Hey HM, I have a similar situation with waves and volume and it usually helps if I keep the front of the board down while paddling into the wave and during the popup. Basically chin down towards the board. Then I kinda give the board one last push down the face of the wave during the popup.

I think it helps balance out the high volume and more water rushing up the face in bigger/steeper waves. Might be worth trying in a gradual approach and see if it helps.

[HM17]

Where are you positioned on the surfspot compared to the guys making the drops? If you would theoretically sit as close as shoulder to shoulder with a better surfer then you would have your positioning correct. /quote]

that idea makes sense but the upside of a miles-wide beach break is that i can make my mistakes away from everyone else and not interfere with their day. I understand your point though. I should pay closer attention to their take off points and sequence.

[gsseirik]

Yeah, because you say that there are no channels where you surf..but if I'm thinking correctly the ocean will always make channels where it draws seawater out again. So you might end up on a bit deeper part of the beach. And also the position of the peak will change often, due to movement of sand. On a long sandy beach there will be sandbanks that works better than on other points on that excact beach.

[gsseirik]

Or you might end up surfing a part of the beach that makes more dumping waves due to the bottom contour there.

[HM17]

i do stay out of the busier spots out of respect., but the issues are plainly with my development, not that I am getting materially worse waves. By all accounts, they are however difficult waves on many days and not the ideal learning spot.

i take it though from the comments that no one is suggesting trying to pop up earlier. I could see a school of thought that when the waves go vertical very quickly you need to initiate the pop immediately upon feeling lift, or even anticipate lift because the pop itself takes a second. But am i correct that this approach is not the solution, rather you want to continue paddling long enough to get over the ledge if not partially down the face first?

[gsseirik]

On your previous attempts do you end up going over the falls? Or do you pull back because it looks too steep? You need to be swift, yes. But it helps to look where you wanna go, instead of looking straight down into the steepest section. After more practice and attempts I think you will start to feel that you have better time, and that time kind of slows down a bit. When I surf scary spots or bigger waves I tend to freeze up more. It helps to bail a couple of times just to experience that it will go okay. And you will also learn which waves are better to pull off on, and which you can commit to.

For my part I pop up as soon as I feel that Im in the wave, or when "the boat is planing". Over the years it has become more an instinct or a feeling, and it's a bit hard to break down into seconds etc. Like waikikikichan says, a bigger board will aid you in a way that you will faster achieve this instinct or feeling.

[HM17]

i go over. but to be clear, it's not like i am looking down (or across, as I try to do) a skateboard half-pipe and just blow the drop execution. I don't see any wave face from the top--just air and trough below. it feels like in am on the lip past vertical with no good next move. At that point i bail rather than attempt some air drop. It could be that I am just picking bad closeout waves, and on some days that seems to be 80-90% of what rolls in. But I still see guys get to their feet, which I am not managing to do at all on the bigger, steeper waves. Maybe i am taking off in the middle of the wide close-out sections and they are better at finding shoulders were the waves tend to peel at least a little.

i am not at all against the bigger board approach and regularly use the 8' soft top but still have similar issues (as do other people i see out there). And that board can feel even more awkward trying to get it downhill in a steep 3-4 foot wave

[ConcreteVitamin]

I don't see any wave face from the top--just air and trough below. it feels like in am on the lip past vertical with no good next move.

Sounds like you were too inside/too deep when you take off. Try sitting further out (bigger boards help getting in early), or sitting further down the line.

[waikikikichan]

But am i correct that this approach is not the solution, rather you want to continue paddling long enough to get over the ledge if not partially down the face first?

Question: How many paddles are making ? In a 2 part paddle, 1st to paddle into position, 2nd to take off, how many paddles are you doing to take off ? 4 paddles ? 10 paddles ?

[HM17]

I don't see any wave face from the top--just air and trough below. it feels like in am on the lip past vertical with no good next move.

Sounds like you were too inside/too deep when you take off. Try sitting further out (bigger boards help getting in early), or sitting further down the line.

i suspect this is the central issue. when i move further out i tend to miss early, which i suppose is a timing/paddle speed/board size issue. but i think you are correct that the fix needs to begin by moving out.

[HM17]

But am i correct that this approach is not the solution, rather you want to continue paddling long enough to get over the ledge if not partially down the face first?

Question: How many paddles are making ? In a 2 part paddle, 1st to paddle into position, 2nd to take off, how many paddles are you doing to take off ? 4 paddles ? 10 paddles ?

it varies because I am actively trying to adjust to the wave speed and shape and not just paddle mindlessly, but i would say closer to 10 as the wave approaches. I don't have a good sense for what i am doing after lift begins on these steeper waves. On the more gentle ones, if my timing is good it is two paddles, glide and pop, and 4 or 6 if i seem a bit stuck and want to get over the lip. (I completely understand and practice the "paddle over the lip/weight forward" thing on the smaller/less steep waves, the trouble is on the steep ones. i think i am getting in too late as another poster just commented).