Crouching - is there such as thing as too low

[Art]

Hi All,

Great forum full of great advice.

I have really restarted surfing after a long break(surfed daily when younger, but only really surfed a few times a year for the last 10 years). I've never been a top to bottom surfer, but have always been able to ride waves, simple cutbacks etc. But now I've really decided to rebuild my surfing before I get into the old bad habits.

Anyway, on crouching low during compression doing things like takeoff and bottom turns etc. Watching the top surfers, I was surprised how low they get in their crouch as they compress and decompress on each wave during bottom turns, or working the line to gain speed etc. To the point in some cases where they are crouched so low that their hands could touch the board. I have always stood up too high and would always struggle with top to bottom surfing as I (now know) that I stand up too high and don't get the compression I need to go up the face of the wave.

So my question is - to improve this, is there such a thing as too low? Should I try and exaggerate this movement and really get it down - remembering that I have 15+ years of muscle memory telling me to stand up pretty straight.

And secondly, do you think practising the stance for a period each day makes a difference. I started doing it , and it felt unnatural as first(lots of pressure on the thighs), but after a few days it's started to feel normal, and it 'looks' like the style of high end surfers. I haven't been out for a paddle since I started doing this, but I'm wondering if others have done it to some benefit. I just don't get enough time in the water and looking to do anything that can make a difference.

Anyway, thanks for any advice.

[oldmansurfer]

How low can you go? It depends on your strength and flexibility. If you have no problem getting back up quickly then it's not too low. In my old age it gets more difficult so I practice crouching and moving my weight from my front foot to my back foot while crouched and I do squats for leg strength. I think getting used to moving your weight around while crouched will help but you need to get some waves regularly to improve. The older you are and the longer you go without surfing the more you will lose with time spent not surfing. Then you have to surf enough to catch up to where you were before after which you will start to make progress again. I currently crouch in a wide stance and touch my hands on both sides of my front foot then staying low turn and place my hands on both sides of my back foot. it seems to help me. I am gradually getting stronger and more flexible.

[Art]

Thanks for the quick response.

Your point about 'I currently crouch in a wide stance and touch my hands on both sides of my front foot' is quite interesting at that implies you stay quite low and gives a reference point to doing so. I'm also trying to open up my arms a bit more as part of my improvements, so I might take that on board as a principal reference point.

Thinking more about bending knees and crouching, it seems when you get less than about 90 degree angle between lower leg up to knee, and upper leg above knee, you lose balance backwards(at least when doing it on land). Interestingly, that seems to be the point where a lot of surfers go to - so I guess that makes sense that this is the point of maximum compression while still maintaining balance - which good surfers do instinctively. So I'd probably say I'm doing myself a disservice by getting too low - just get as low as you can balance and work from there.

I wish I thought of this biomechanics stuff 15 years ago!

[Big H]

Less biomechanics and more stretching....you will not fall over backwards if you are flexible....get flexible and you can really get down...not really an effective surfing stance though....seems like your balance would be wrong if you were too low unless you opened up your stance / shoulders and faced forward more (pig dog for instance)....I googled surf bottom turn pic and yeah, most of the bottom turn leg positions were at a max of 90*, many of them less......surprising amount of Alana Blanchard bottom bottom turn pics in there......

I attached one of Mark Richards.....no doubt he's screaming through this bottom turn and isn't really crouched at all.....


.

[Art]

haha! so true.

On a serious note, is there benefit to it though. If you could get down so low that you calves are touching your hamstring(or whatever the back of the upper leg muscles are called, does that lead to more compression and more speed. I might need to look at the footage of the top surfers again.

Guess I'm trying to understand if there is a maximum efficient compression point. Lots learn that by trial and error in the surf. I'd prefer to know before I paddle out and practice the feeling at home so it feels familiar in the water.

Edit to your edit. I see you've added some more info. Thanks again.

[Big H]

I'm just talking here so take it with a grain of salt.....stand up and pretend you are going though a bottom turn.....crouch down and coil your body to spring out of the turn....how far do you crouch down and still feel athletic, coiled and poised to strike or leap? Now go a little lower, go a little lower.....the lower you go the less you feel like a coiled spring and the more you feel like those geezers above....at what point were you the most poised to spring out of your crouch? Somewhere in the middle right?

I would say that is the point and reaching it should be as natural and instinctive as when you do something ordinary like jump over a puddle or jump up as high as you can.....your body just knows; better thoughts IMO would be to stay loose and athletic feeling....

BTW....good luck in copying MR's lurch .....he must have been flying.......

[Art]

Thanks again. I think you're spot on that the body just knows.

When I have been doing my on land crouching/positions etc there is a point when I crouch, have the arms and legs in a particular position and it just feels like you're coiled ready to launch. And it's not a coiled feeling like when you simply crouch and jump up, but a combination of crouch and body position(shoulders arms hips etc) that kind of makes you feel like the coil will take you the direction of the wave face.

So I'm thinking I should just focus on consciously thinking about getting into that position of good form out in the surf, rather than doing the exaggerated version of it I talked about at the start(which would inevitably just create new muscle memory in the wrong way). And practicing it at home in front of a mirror for a few minutes a day.

Can't wait to get out and give it a go...

[dtc]

Remember that merely crouching and straightening does nothing itself. You have to straighten at the same time as transitioning to a rail ie leaning forward or back. Otherwise you are just pushing the board into the water.

There is no rule about height. A deeper crouch gives more power and a faster turn, which is usually what you want, but not always - if you want to cruise around a section (breaking part) then no need for a sharp power turn. And of course getting lower takes more time and you may cramp up your hips or shoulders...

[oldmansurfer]

When you are riding bigger waves there isn't as much need for crouching. On big waves you crouch just to lower your center of balance and make it harder for you to fall. On smaller waves you can add power to your turns that isn't needed as much on bigger waves. As you are starting a turn be it bottom turn or top turn or cutback if you lower your center of gravity by crouching it adds push to the board and then extend your legs as you turn it adds more power to the turn. At the end of a turn your legs are extended and you unweight and it is sort of like hopping up or falling down across the wave while you move the board to catch you at whatever position you are aimed to go to. Once your board gets to that position and starts to turn then you crouch which creates downward momentum (weighting) and helps to set the rail for a turn. You can test this by just standing up and riding a wave and turning while standing then try dropping into a crouch quickly and turning. This helps to turn a weak turn into a more powerful turn. This is why I like riding bigger waves, it's easier to ride them because they provide the power. To complicate matters more when you turn you torque your upper body in preparation for turning the bring your lower body and the board back around to match your upper body. It always amazes me what we actually do while surfing. When I surf I don't think (much) it's all reflexes and muscle memory.

[Art]

Thanks dtc. There is a world of good advice on this forum.

The crouching and straightening was what I alluded to previously. It doesn't feel like it creates anything but uplift if you just stand there, but when combined with body position(arms either side of body) shoulder open but slightly towards wave direction, eyes facing the direction you are going, weight distributed a certain way, slightly back and toes slightly dug in - it just feels coiled. I'm hoping that translates.

And yep, as for the level of crouch, I'm not talking one size fits all - this is purely on takeoff and bottom turn with the intent of hitting the lip with max speed.

[waikikikichan]

Motorcycle analogy. Hanging off and dragging knee in the corner at 50mph, Cool. Trying to hang off the side of the bike at 15mph going straight, Silly. Extreme speed, extreme lean angles.

If you want to know if your crouch matches what's happening in the turn ...... Count how many fins you can see in the photo of you surfing.

[waikikikichan]

this is an extreme bottom turn by the Man, Tom Curren. He is not reaching down like some beginners do, he is feeling / gauging the lean. He is not squatting but coiled up like a spring waiting for the right moment to extend up and out.

JW15MX7D1798-1000x666.jpg (38.38 KiB) Viewed 2596 times

[Big H]

Tomo vanguards are hot.....

What an awesome picture.....look at all the body lines parallel to the water surface. Try practicing that in the mirror!

[oldmansurfer]

There is a feeling to it like a spring. You can feel the pressure in your legs from the turn which will be released coming out of the turn. I totally love that feeling. Sometimes you may just let that pressure dissipate in order to slow down and get tubed. I rarely get so close to the water in my turns these days (surf is too small), but hope to have more in the future

[IanCaio]

This image showed up in my facebook timeline and reminded me of this topic!



Guess there's never enough crouching when there's chance for a barrel

[Art]

As the thread starter, I thought I should update.

I've been for a few surfs since these posts and have tried adopting this technique in the water. My observations were getting really low only works if you have the correct stance on the board. Just crouching for crouching sake doesn't work. What it did though is help with an awareness that you need to be low most of the time with correct technique, and this helps immensely with pumping down the line and getting bottom turns right. I can now notice when I'm on a wave that I'm too upright when I go and try and pump down the line and it doesn't work(catches rail a bit, losing speed) - immediately crouching into the correct stance and bang - you're working the line again. This becomes most apparent on sideways takeoffs when you need to do your first pump(shallow bottom turn) on the top of the wave without going to the bottom. If you're not low on takeoff, you can't do that tight compression/extension immediately after takeoff to stay at the top of the wave, and so you go to the bottom of the wave. And if you are not crouched there, then you can't get back up.....

So in summary, I think there are more benefits in investing in correct stance and technique, with crouching being one part of it, rather than just investing in getting really low for low sake.

The other final point for those who had a long break from surfing and are getting back into it again(and were pretty average to begin with) - I was surprised with the amount of effort it takes to change your muscle memory as everything moves so fast. It's natural to resort to your existing technique unless you really think about it. I think it takes much more work to rebuild bad habits that to start from scratch. So my point is, time in the water getting wave after wave is key....but only if you really investing in the correct stance and technique...Pretty obvious really, but I've had a big education in the last month or so, and already seen (infrequent) signs of big improvements when I can strip away the bad technique and take on the good.

Thanks for all your advice. Bit longwinded - but at least I have the issues documented to remind me the path forward. And these are just my observations - take it with a grain of salt..

[oldmansurfer]

I think crouching makes you put pressure on your front foot more and this makes you go faster also. The real benefit of crouching in my opinion is the greater ability to alter your center of gravity. If you stand all the ways up then you lose the ability to raise your center of gravity and if you crouch all the way down you lose the ability to lower it. So if you want to be able to respond to the wave then an in between crouch lets you have more options. Thanks for the update.

[dtc]

What does waikikichan say 'practice wrong makes wrong perfect' or something like that. Yes, muscle memory can be really annoying

[Art]

Absolutely. I reckon getting the technique right at the start should be the #1 piece of advice to learners.

While there are heaps of 'styles', there really is only one technique to become a good surfer - because nature dictates the best form of balance on a surfboard. When you look at all surfers, they all have a different style, but essentially they all are doing the same thing...low stance, centred body, back leg back on pad, back knee leant forward, hands on both sides of the board which allows the shoulders and hips to be facing somewhat forward. All these things are the core attributes every good surfer has irrespective of style. And just by doing these things, you will surf better. Just took me 15 years to work it out...haha

[waikikikichan]

but essentially they all are doing the same thing...low stance, centred body, back leg back on pad, back knee leant forward, hands on both sides of the board which allows the shoulders and hips to be facing somewhat forward.

Could you clarify the "back knee leant forward and hands on both sides of the board which allows the shoulders and hips to be facing somewhat forward" ? I don't see those as part of a basic surfing stance.