Volume versus length question

[Swimmy Tim]

Does a shorter board paddle more slowly than a longer board with the same volume, all other things (eg. rocker) being equal?

I am 6 foot 4, 185 pounds (not including weight for 5 mm full suit), intermediate surfer, and have owned various boards down to 6-4, and usually go for something around 40 liters. I am considering getting a 5-11 CI Joe, but the volume is a little more than any of my current boards (43.3). Some folks have said I should get a 5-9 but that would be WAAAAAYYYY shorter than anything I've owned by a long shot, but the volume might be more suited at 39.8 liters. I'm 45 and enjoy paddle speed for wave hunting so I'm a little concerned about getting something too slow. Should I even worry about the slightly more volume on the 5-11 Joe?

Thanks.

[drowningbitbybit]

Does a shorter board paddle more slowly than a longer board with the same volume, all other things (eg. rocker) being equal?

In theory no, but in practise all things won't be equal - in particular, the nose of the your short high-volume board is going to be wider which can slow you down, particularly in less than glassy conditions. Also, you've got less leeway for shifting the nose of the board up and down by adjusting your weight position, so that can slow you down a bit too.
In general though, it's not too much of a drama.

I'm pretty similar to you - 6ft, 85kg, usually ride a 6'2 of around 36 L, and I recently got a 5'10 (best part of 40 L) for small days. Similarly, the guy in the shop was saying to go down to 5'8, which I think I could have ridden pretty easily, but then I'd have been missing the point of a short board for small waves.

At your height, I'd go for the 5'11 - the increased volume will almost always be an advantage and won't slow you down on the type of waves that it's built for.

[waikikikichan]

Does a shorter board paddle more slowly than a longer board with the same volume, all other things (eg. rocker) being equal?

Do both boards have the exact same volume ? I wished they never came out with the volume calculators. Makes selling boards so much more difficult when the customer says " but the volume calculators says this ". Again it's more than just numbers, you have to take into account the total package. Give 10 shapers the same shaping dimensions and volumes and each board will ride different.

One thing is going from a 6'4" to a 5'11" you have ( about ) 5 inches more of you legs sticking out the back. You'll be able to kick deeper before contacting the tail of the board. That could assist the "speed" you like.

[dtc]

Paddle speed is a bit of misnomer really. Think how fast you actually paddle - not very fast. All the theory around hull speed and planing speed is not very applicable to surfboards that are short (even at 10ft that's short) and aren't going very fast anyway (when paddling) ie they don't turn into planing hulls at low speed (they do on a wave).

The difference in paddling speed is far more around drag eg rocker (how much water you are pushing around). Then you have the external factors eg a thinner nose board often paddles better in rough or unsettled seas because it 'cuts though' rather than has to float over the top.

What is certain is that higher volume makes the paddling easier because the board is supporting you more; but not really faster (and perhaps slower if it limits your ability to duck dive or turn etc). Volume distribution, ie how much foam is under the heavier parts of your body, assists with that support. This might be what you mean when you talk about liking paddle speed for wave hunting - a board that seems like it is an easier paddle, not one that is actually faster.

So if you are paddling identical boards but different sizes, then they will both paddle at more or less the same speed, but the higher volume will be 'easier'. Whether 4L is really noticeable when paddling, however, I don't know.

Higher volume obviously has wave catching benefits as well, and assists in smaller waves once you are up. Shorter boards are less stable as a general rule.

There are two ways of looking at this - the DBB theory, which is that more volume is (up to a point) never a disadvantage. And the decrepit old man theory (which I have made up since I am also 45), which is that you pretty much have only a few years left to surf shorter boards - if you haven't surfed a 5-9 by the time you are 50 or so, chances are you will never be able to (properly) surf a 5-9...

[oldmansurfer]

even if you have surfed a 5'9" board you might not be able to once you get old. Or you might not even want to try. what is the point of a super short board? to ride tiny waves better? Not a goal of mine

[Big H]

I'm with you OMS....bigger waves and bigger boards....

[IB_Surfer]

In my quest for the perfect fish I went too small. Yes I could ride a 5;8" fish, but missed some waves, I'm more about wave frequency than hyperperformance. So my fish that I use for small waves and big mushy days is actually 3"thick, 22inches wide and 6;3" long.

However, my go-to longboard is actually an 8ftr minimall, though I have a 9'6" that I only take out when I want to show off since it's so pretty. Then again, some say I have a board addiction, have a board for every need, even one for when I want to shortboard but am feeling lazy lol

[Big H]

I have a thumbtail fish that is 21.75 by 2.75 and 6'4""....I'm 6'1" and don't feel that is big at all. You're about the sAme siZe so I imagine you're in the same boat.

[drowningbitbybit]

what is the point of a super short board? to ride tiny waves better?

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it. I ride a short-but-wide board for days when it's small (<3ft) but peeling fast or even beach dumping. I can do things on the small board that I couldn't do on a longer board. On my 6'10, which is great for going along the line on smaller fatter days, I can't get the turn back up to the lip before it closes out like I can on my stumpy board - its length and hence turning radius is too big and I don't have speed for a snap, so the bigger board is all about straight lines on small waves *yawn*

I have more fun on a 2-3ft day on a stumpy board (and a much higher wave count) than on a big day on my big board

[Big H]

Don't forget....OMS is in Hawaii so he has the luxury of big wave vs small wave choice on a given day....

[Swimmy Tim]

All good points, and I tend to be on the side of more waves = more fun versus the never-ending quest for high performance. So maybe the 5-11 is more suited to my ambition, despite always wanting to improve my cutback. Anyone try the Channel Islands Average Joe? This is the board I'm referencing in my earlier post, in case it wasn't clear. Heard very good things about it, very easy to surf, catch waves, carve turns, etc. High volume for the length, wide, fat..... fun?

Thanks for the feedback.

[oldmansurfer]

Well how small are you talking about? I can get turns in with my 7'6" board on waist high waves and get speed up but then I weigh 200 pounds so I can shove that thing around like it doesn't weigh anything. I surf small waves just to keep me in shape for when there are bigger waves. It beats sitting at home.

[Swimmy Tim]

It's almost all beach breaks here (west coast of Canada). I'll go out in waist high to a couple feet overhead. Bigger than that here and paddling out gets very challenging. Wave quality is quite variable, ranging from clean peeler to mush burgers to close-out city. I do travel to Costa Rica or Mexico once a year, but don't go for spots that are known for big waves.

I do take note that the quest to get on a shorter board is a vain one, and I believe many surfers are on boards too short or too low in volume for them. Unless you're one of the high performance experts in the water, board size often seems to be inversely related to ego when you walk down the beach. Fine by me, I'd rather catch more waves.

Best article I've read on surfboard volume is this one: http://surfsimply.com/surf-coaching/vol ... ht-ratios/ Very useful insights, but I think they go a little too big, kind of like the silly Firewire volume calculator.

Cheerzzzzzzzzzzz.

[oldmansurfer]

Great article but here is what I would say. If you can't do the maneuvers you want to do then either you need to learn more or learn more on different equipment. My approach to learning to surf is to keep at it till I am sure the board is holding me back then get a different board. recently I got a slightly shorter board because I knew I would sometime soon but really I wanted a boad that I could switch from a true thruster to a quad so I can feel the difference however the 7'6" board which is shorter than my 8' board which I still love is better in smaller surf which I would avoid riding if there were bigger waves around but sometimes there aren't any. I think because the pros surf small board everyone thinks they need to. I don't think I have the time to learn to surf like a pro so I don't care if the pros ride smaller boards. However if you want to surf like a pro then you need to get shorter boards.

[drowningbitbybit]

However if you want to surf like a pro then you need to get shorter boards.

...or you might just prefer shorter boards.
Don't make the mistake of thinking everyone on a shortboard is doing it just so they can do the next big maneouvre that's in fashion this week. I'm no high-performance surfer - I just prefer short boards. The feeling of a longboard vs a shortboard is different. Not better or worse, just different. I don't really 'get' the longboard feeling, even when it's a far more suitable board, and prefer to have the minimum length board beneath me that I can get away with (volume too, but I'm old and unfit so something has to give).
Logic doesn't really come into it - it would be like trying to convince someone that cake is better than chocolate

[oldmansurfer]

It's all Kelly Slaters fault He had to go do some innovative stuff with boards and surf with really short stuff. Hey If I thought for a second it would take me less than years to learn to surf a 5'2" board I might consider it but as it is even my 6'2" board is not worth the hassel. I can ride it but the effort is too great. Long ago my brother had a very short board, think it was a 5'2" board, they used to call them potatochip boards (single glassed in fin). When I was still paipo boarding (I had not learned to surf) I took it and worked for 30 minutes trying to figure out how to catch a wave with it before I caught one and I stood up and got tubed and came out. The board was longer than my 4 foot paipo board which I stood on (with swim fins on) sometimes just for a change of pace. I am no longer the spry flexible youngster I once was. but back then I was edging up in size slowly. I started with a 6'10" then 7' then 7'1" then a 7'2" those were all considered shortboards back then. But now they go shorter and shorter. I am not going to be in good enough shape to surf those boards. I enjoy my longer boards but surf them as if they were shorter.

[waikikikichan]

I think minds got opened to shorter boards after Tom Curren rode a 5'7" fireball fish in 1994 in Indo.

[dtc]

Best article I've read on surfboard volume is this one: http://surfsimply.com/surf-coaching/vol ... ht-ratios/ Very useful insights, but I think they go a little too big, kind of like the silly Firewire volume calculator.

Cheerzzzzzzzzzzz.

Surf Simply also have a podcast talking about that table which is worth listening to (I have listened to maybe 5 or 6 of their podcasts and they are generally worth it). I think the problem with the table is that level 2 and 3 is too overvolumed by maybe 20%; but the discussion around the issues is excellent.

[oldmansurfer]

I thought the reason shorter boards became the standard is due to Slater (and others) doing radical maneuvers on them. While it is awesome that Curren rode waves that size wave on that short of a board he didn't do anything you couldn't do with a longer board. I guess in reality it was probably Curren, Slater and a bunch of others who made the shortboards look good and this got the pros to scale down and the industry followed suit. But I think most surfers aren't going to reach the level where those really short boards are a necessity. They may ride them and get used to them but they could ride bigger boards and do the same things.

[drowningbitbybit]

But I think most surfers aren't going to reach the level where those really short boards are a necessity.

Define "necessity" when it comes to surfing
I don't need to ride a small board, I prefer to ride a small board.
Once you've got beyond needing the length/volume as a newbie, it's just subjective preference. I sometimes watch guys on longboards getting much longer rides than I do and think "dammit! I should be on a longboard", but mostly I have more fun (which is, after all, the entire point) on a stubby little board than I do on my bigger boards.

In theory, I'd be happiest on a board not much longer than the width between my feet but in practise I'd need to be riding a skimboard and I'm about 30 years too old to get into that