Top to bottom surfing

[Art]

I was hoping someone could help with a technical explanation regarding top to bottom surfing - particularly big bottom turns transitioning to vertical type reos.

Is the method that gets you from the bottom to the top actually created by which of the following mechanisms

the unweighting when you go from compressed to uncompressed as you transition, and so you effectively have a surfboard following the line up the swell wall(think of what would happen if you an empty surfboard out on the water - it bobs up and down on the unbroken peaks and troughs of waves). Essentially being unweighted allows you to get to the peak(or top) of the wave in a similar way an empty surfboard would naturally float to the top of an unbroken peak.

OR

Is actual real speed created off the bottom when you unweight. I have read that this mechanism can be used in skateboarding. In this example real speed is 'created' by unweighting - independent of the wave.

OR both.

We all know that if you hit the bottom fully standing up you struggle to get up to the top of the wave. But is this because you are 'weighted' and therefore can't naturally 'bob up' to the top(option 1) or is it because you lost your speed(or can't create it) because compression and extension actually creates real independent speed.

Thanks in advance.

[oldmansurfer]

Both. One is transforming momentum in one direction to another and the other is shifting your weight similar to jumping, you compress and essentially jump with your board so you board picks up speed from gravity falling down the face and this force is translated into angular momentum or down the line speed but with a little more turning it is up the face momentum, add in the unweighting and it is even more force going up the face. If you extend your legs on the drop and then crouch at the bottom it adds force into the turn and the crouching in addition allows for unweighting. But if you are going fast enough or the wave is slow enough you may not need any of that. I think compression adds a little speed. Unweighting doesn't overall but it gets you to the top expending less energy from your momentum and puts you where you can fall back down the wave and this adds speed. Perhaps unweighting adds speed only for a short burst like jumping does but overall in the case of bottom to top surfing it just gets you up to the top at a faster speed and once there you can go back to the bottom and this generates some more speed. In my mind I think it just serves to conserve the energy you generate by falling down the face of the wave. There are probably other forces involved such as shifting weight from front to back or vice versa and how that affects board speed so when you are on the bottom you have more pressure on your back foot and when you are on the top more pressure on your front foot. Pressure on your back foot slows you down a little and pressure on your front foot speeds you up . Maybe other stuff too such as positioning of your center of gravity during the turns. Yet we can learn to do all this without a clue as to exactly what we are doing.

[Art]

Thanks. I thought it was both. The reason it peaked my interest was that I spent some time watching surfers from kind of side on rather than in front(on the beach)recently.

Watching them go down the line from the side looked much different then when watching from the beach. When doing a bottom turn to a vertical re-entry it very much looked like they were actively turning their board in the direction of up the wave from the trough, and then passively climbing up the wave as the peak rose towards them ...if that makes sense. I've never thought of it that way before and always thought you had to 'work' to get to the top of the wave from the bottom.

What its saying to me is enough speed and right position on the bottom turn you naturally get to the top(by the nature of peaks and troughs in unbroken waves), but by compressing and extending you get more speed again. It might seem self explanatory to some, but this is quite a revelation for me as someone who has struggled with top to bottom surfing in the past. Once I understand it, I can build on it as that the way I think...plus I get little time in the water these days and the next best think is visualisation and practice on land. I am seeing massive improvements doing this - even more than I expected.

[Big H]

Don't over intellectualize the action. You coulld write 3 pages on the dynamics of cornering a motorcycle or could just say to choose a line, brake before the turn and accelerate out of it.

I know that if I don't commit, if I am at all tentative, it immediately translates thru my feet as a stall...commit, charge, free your mind, look where yoi want to go and learn the feels so that you develop a better understanding of the wave and a higher level of anticipation of where you need to be so that you can proactively go after the wave rather than trying to hang on reactively.

[Art]

Thanks Big H. I think the difference between other sports and surfing is the short time you are able to spend actually practising on a wave. I've been surfing for 10 years previously, then stopped( a few surfs with mates a few times a year) and restarted fully about 3 months ago. I've improved more in the 3 months that the whole 10 years combined. It's just the way I think. If I snowboarded or drove a car or skated etc. I can keep practising over and over by trial and error. Surfing I can't.

I had two weeks out of the water recently, and spent that two weeks visualising, understanding and practising on a skateboard the mechanics of backhand surfing. I'd never ridden a backhand to the beach prior to this surf. First wave I went all the way to the beach just by understanding how to visualise pumping down the line on a backhand and cutting back into the pocket. I actually shocked myself a few times how often a wave reforms and pockets develop when you are in the right position. Over the day I got probably the 3 or 4 of the best backhands of my life.

I'm now trying to translate this understanding to real vertical top to bottom surfing. Hoping to come back in 6 months to have the same conversation about doing airs...

[oldmansurfer]

Visualizing is an important part of learning new things surfing at least for me. I once saw a picture of a surfer (Barry Kanaiaupuni) in surfer magazine doing a turn with the fin (single fins only back in those days) out of the water above the top of the wave. I spent 2 weeks visualizing it and going over exactly how and where I was going to do this. Then I was surfing and saw my opportunity and pulled it off without a problem. In fact I found my success rate was very high doing that turn. But still surfing a lot is a great way to learn if you can spare the time and have the waves to ride. Airs? Do you do them skateboarding?

[Art]

I was really surprised at home much visualisation and practicing stance on land improved things.I posted here a few months ago talking about starting this technique and it's really making a difference.

One thing I have found is that it doesn't really improve consistency though. I'd get two good waves and then catch a rail on the third. I think only time in the water can fix that fine detail.

As for Airs....hence the lol and shocked smilie. Very much tongue in cheek...

[Tudeo]

If I snowboarded or drove a car or skated etc. I can keep practising over and over by trial and error. Surfing I can't.

Jup, that's a big difference. What board did you use for getting back into surfing? I think the right board for the right waves, skills and body specs can make a huge difference in wave count and so in the trial and error learning.

[Art]

Hi tudeo, it's a bit thicker and wider. Actually a bit shorter too. Get on waves a bit earlier and feel more stable. Immediately liked it from the start.

Now that my paddling has improved a lot, getting on them is not as much of an issue but I definitely catch less rails than my old previous life performance board when I used to sink a foot into the water when waiting out the back....

[oldmansurfer]

Watching them go down the line from the side looked much different then when watching from the beach. When doing a bottom turn to a vertical re-entry it very much looked like they were actively turning their board in the direction of up the wave from the trough, and then passively climbing up the wave as the peak rose towards them ...if that makes sense. I've never thought of it that way before and always thought you had to 'work' to get to the top of the wave from the bottom.

On smaller waves it is perhaps like doing a sidekick in karate. Your head and body stay in about the same place but your legs come up. Of course it depends on if they are power surfing or just cruising. But when power surfing your center of gravity always moves less than your legs. So when you hit the top of the wave you are leaning back down the wave already and have to complete the turn or fall off your board. As far as turning back up the face it depends if you want to smack the lip or throw the tail out or do a tail sliding turn and if so you need to turn up the face (varying degrees but vertical if that's what you want) with or without unweigting. However if you want to do a projection turn then you don't need to get vertical to hit the lip, you can just keep the board sideways and unweight up. For maximum power you need to unweight and weight unless the wave is so huge that your legs can't handle any more pressure than that which the wave already provides. This is one of the reasons I like bigger waves, you don't need to work it to power surf. The smaller the waves the more you have to work them. Sometimes the unweighting is needed to get to the lip because your position is below the breaking portion of the wave and you need to get around it with unweighting in a forward and up the face direction.

Here is a pretty cool video of an off the lip

[oldmansurfer]

The video says he keeps his leg bent but he actually extend them then compresses for the bottom turn

[Art]

Just a quick thanks to all for your advice on this. huge change in the way I think about surfing and looking forward to trying it out soon...