Progressing from white water to unbroken waves! Heeeeeelp!

[Lachlandudley33]

Hey guys,

This post may be a little long but I want to explain accurately the problems I am having, so please bear with me. First of, I am 6,2, 75 kilos and have my own 7 foot mini-mal (bullet) board. I have been surfing approximately ten times and I have started to transition from the white water stage to surfing the unbroken face of waves. I have only just started to do this so, obviously, I need more practice, but before I go back out for another session I thought I'd post some of my questions here to see if any one who has been through this process has any answers. My initial problem with this transition is that I continue to nose dive each time I try to catch these types of waves. I found out from a friend that this was largely because I was trying to catch these waves in the same manner that I was trying to catch white water waves - Trying to catch them front on. Apparently, you have to angel your board to the side in order to catch this type of wave. Now, the other issue is that I am not sure when to pop up on this type of wave. Unlike white water waves, this wave lifts me up into the air before shooting me down into the wave (which, I must add, is great fun:P ). I am always worried that I will nose plant it or fall from a greater height if I stand up when the wave is lifting me, so I have stuck to waiting for the wave to pick me up then spit me down (I have no other way to explain it, that's just what it feels like) and then I wait for a second or two until I am just shooting along the water quickly and then standing up. My question is, should I be trying to pop up just as the wave is lifting me up and getting ready to hurl me to my imminent doom? If so, how do you stop from nose diving once you are standing and the wave is proceeding to shoot you down its face? Are you meant to put more pressure on your back foot to stop the initial face plant of joy that , for me, often follows?

Cheers for any answers.

Just to recap, my two questions are as follows,

1. When do you pop up on a wave that is not a white water wave? (When it starts to raise you or at another time?)

2. If you do have to pop up when it is raising you up then are there any things that you have to do to stop it from nose diving?

(Keep in mind i'm on a 7 foot board).

Thanks heaps for any replies guys.

[jaffa1949]

So you are on to your next step have a read and a little search around this site and the pop up subject
there is this first
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=730
Try googling all the pop up videos on youtube, there are some really good examples there.
One thing you need to have fully caught the wave, two more strokes and you should be heading down the wave or angled slightly across it, if you are being lifted you are popping too early you should head downwards, take some wipeouts in getting it figured they are unavoidable and when you learn to correct them before they happen you are on your way to getting it right!
Getting the wipeouts happening will get you over your fears and embarrassment. your old way was the white water way, be an upstanding surfer.Why we don't answer the question absolutely as one answer each wave requires you to be able to tweak your technique slightly, which is why figuring it out for yourself is what you have to do. ( but the videos will help).
If you scroll down through the learning forum you will see this question has beenasked with exactly the same issues time and time again, don't despair it is a skill you have to achieve

[tonylamont]

1. You pop up when you are certain you have caught the wave - that is, when you have paddled into it and feel that you are planing along with the wave. With unbroken waves, this often requires more paddling speed than whitewater waves. Assuming you are paddling fast enough, the main difference with catching unbroken waves is that it is more of a gravity thing than in the whitewater- if you have enough momentum then you start dropping down the wave face, as opposed to being pushed along by whitewater. I wouldn't worry too much about the timing of your pop-up at first, other than to be sure you have caught the wave.

2. Lots of things can cause nose diving. A few of the major culprits:

- You are not paddling fast enough

- You are not arching your back enough - this moves your weight farther back on the board and helps keep the nose out of the water

- You are catching the wave too late - tends to lead to the "epic face plant." If this is the case, you need to move a bit farther outside.

- You are too far forward on the board

Angling your takeoffs may help in some cases, but unless you are in super steep, critical surf the problem is most likely one of the things above.

In your case, the 7' board also seems like a potential problem. A 7' board is pretty short for a starter board for any adult, esp. one of your size. Have you tried a larger board? A 9 or 10 foot board would be much easier to learn on.

Oh, and for more detail on some of these issues, Google the "Surf Simply" videos.

Good luck.

[Lebowski]

Also, just to add to the points above, you could be too far back on your board. This means you aren't paddling as fast as you could because the board is pushing water, and usually means that you can't catch the waves until they are ultra critical (ie. very steep, about to break). This leads to a difficult take off and potentially a nose dive.

Most beginners that I see are often too far back on the board. It's instinctive to move back on the board if you're nose diving to keep the nose up, but the remedy is to move forward a few inches until the nose is just clear of the water while you paddle.

[Lachlandudley33]

@ Lebowski,

Thank you very much for the link to the simply surf podcast/video. IT explained exactly what I needed to know very clearly and coherently. I would suggest that the administrators of this website pop it up on this site if they haven't already as I reckon it was ace ! Cheers for all the replies also guys

[RonG]

@ Lebowski,

Thank you very much for the link to the simply surf podcast/video. IT explained exactly what I needed to know very clearly and coherently. I would suggest that the administrators of this website pop it up on this site if they haven't already as I reckon it was ace ! Cheers for all the replies also guys

I can't add anything useful to what has been said above, as it's been less than a year since I moved from whitewater to green waves. But I can comment on some of your apprehension at the feel of "the drop" and all the other differences between surfing broken and unbroken waves, since I can still well-remember what it was like to surf only the foam.

You'll soon come to appreciate that drop, as it makes popping up soooo much easier than when you're surfing relatively flat whitewater. It's also a much smoother experience - getting bashed in the tail by a broken wave is always a bit jarring and makes for a bumpy ride.

One other thing I've learned the hard way: most of the bad things that can happen - including nosediving - will hurt a lot less if you're on your feet when they happen. I've gotten my worst cuts, bumps and bruises by nosediving or going over the falls while I was still lying on the board.

[Lachlandudley33]

Hey Rong,

Thanks for adding that point. I never really thought of it that way. By getting up it is probably going to put you in a better position to deal with a nose dive or a bail out as you will fall from your feet and hopefully not have your head careering towards the ground. I will go for a surf (hopefully this weekend) and let you know how I go. I'm looking forward to it but also a bit nervous haha. Nose diving is not a very nice feeling and the last one I had left me winded Oh well, all part of the process I guess.

[garbarrage]

At least you're charging, and not holding back. Pulling off waves when there is no danger of hitting someone else, will hinder you. You already know what you need to do. You need to get to your feet faster.

After a few sessions even in white water you will know where your boards sweet spot is. It's pretty much the same whether in white water or clean wave, so I doubt you have a problem with your position on the board. There is a millisecond between when the wave lifts you, you slide down the face, and when you hit the bottom of the wave. It is during this drop that you need to get to your feet. The sooner in the drop you get to your feet, the better chance you have of surfing the wave well. Also you need to get there before the wave pitches.

A longer board will help as the wave will grab your board earlier, which means you have longer to get to your feet before the wave pitches. It may be that you're board requires you to try to take off later than you are capable of making. Those wipe-outs are a part of the process. Just take extra care while you are learning to make sure there is nobody inside you when you are taking off. Nothing annoys me more in the surf, than a beginner who recklessly takes off on waves he knows he has less than a 50% chance of making when there's people inside him.

This thread reminds me of one of my favourite surf quotes. "There is something to be learned from every close-out".

[Lachlandudley33]

This has all been terribly helpful. Thank you all for taking the time to post. I'm looking forward to putting this advice into action, it will likely be a humorous form of action that involves me snapping my board into two , but, none the less, it will be action. This next question may be a bit hard to answer and there is probably a post on the net some where here about it but while I'm here I guess it can't hurt to ask. If I am going straight from white water to unbroken waves, what is a good size waves to try and catch? I mean, what weather conditions are reasonable to go out and try in. 1 ft, 2 ft ,3 ft? I have no idea how to tell what good surfing conditions are (nor can I find any info on the net which seems a bit strange? and neither do I have any friends that surf so can't ask them). Cheers all

[jaffa1949]

Lachlandudley go to your beach sit and look at the surf.
Does it look like something you can handle? (a small size unbroken wave that has a regular way of breaking ) Yes/no.
Can you paddle out using your skills of duckdiving and /or turtle rolling? Yes /no.
Is there heavy traffic in the line up? Yes/ no.
Are there others you would judge of similar skill out there? yes/no.
Can you handle the wipeout you will get when you get one? yes/no.
Do you feel reasonably confident about your yeses? Yes/no
Do you feel a little nervous as you stretch your boundaries? yes/no Yes is good answer here as it means you are not too cocky.
BTW can you swim?
Now about the breaking boards it is highly unlikely at the level you are about to go to.
The reason I posted this is so you can do this procedure at any surf at any beach and assess whether you are capable in handling the conditions.
I would suggest you are maybe a little to cautious but believe me that is way better than just charging head on into a dangerous surf and requiring someone else to rescue you.
Keep up the good work

[tonylamont]

As Jaffa noted, you want to make sure you are comfortable and capable of handling the conditions, and that you steer clear of crowded lineups. This usually means choosing a mellow, uncrowded beach break with smaller waves. Avoid experienced surfers, reef breaks, piers and other obstacles, rocks, heavy shorebreak, etc.

As far as how big the waves need to be: all things being equal, for adult surfers waves need to be at least knee high to be consistently rideable on a longboard. Shortboards usually require somewhat bigger, more powerful waves. Personally i think waist high or slightly bigger waves are a good starting point for a beginner who is a competent swimmer. Remember that better- formed, cleaner waves with longer wave periods tend to pack a lot more power than shorter-period, choppier waves.

As far as how big you go, it's a function of comfort level and safety (as Jaffa said, make sure you are a competent swimmer, also be sure you know how to fall, how to deal with rip currents, etc.). But for most beginners, I would strongly caution getting out in conditions over 3-4 feet until you are very sure you can deal with them.

[surfsadhu]

Lot's of good advice here and elsewhere in the forum.
One thing concerned me from a safety perspective:

After a few sessions even in white water you will know where your boards sweet spot is. It's pretty much the same whether in white water or clean wave, so I doubt you have a problem with your position on the board.

I am only at a beginner/intermediate level and may have miss-understood the poster, but I found out the hard way that the sweet spot on a shortboard for catching a wave as it is breaking is very different than where you lay on the board to catch a broken wave.
I was attempting to paddle out in rough 4-6ft Florida hurricane surf and botched my duckdive on the second wave of an overhead+ set. I got worked badly enough that I turned towards shore to catch the whitewash in to safety, laying on the board in the position a normally do to catch a wave: with the nose barely above water. The force of the whitewater hitting me from behind drove the board and I under water, scorpioned my feet over my head and gave me a much worse beating than the one that had sent me running in the first place . What I learned escaping from that experience is that you have to get much further back on the board to safely catch big whitewash...hanging your hips or more off the tail like a boogie board and the pulling yourself further on the board after you have caught it. I also learned not to go out when it is too big

[garbarrage]

Catching 4-6ft of white-water is a whole-lot different to catching the kind of white-water beginners learn in, and is something akin to taking a very late drop. What I meant was, your boards sweet spot is pretty much the same no matter what sort of wave you are on. On steeper waves you may have to adjust your weight distribution more on the drop by arching your back more, and angling the board. But your position on the board should be the same.

[jaffa1949]

Lot's of good advice here and elsewhere in the forum.
One thing concerned me from a safety perspective: What I learned escaping from that experience is that you have to get much further back on the board to safely catch big whitewash...hanging your hips or more off the tail like a boogie board and the pulling yourself further on the board after you have caught it. I also learned not to go out when it is too big

That was an important lesson you've learnt, the good thing about a board and large white wash is it will get you to shore you might go through the full rinse cycle but you will end up on shore.
The technique you describe is the kick board/ boogie method and will often work but it is not a wave catching technique more a wash ashore lifesaving technique. You showed one good quality, the ability to adapt to get out of a difficult situation.

The surf reject system works well, , what would you have done if you had made it outside under those conditions?
You may have been unlucky enough to get outside so I ask again what then?
Realising our limits is an important factor in safe surfing, preferably before not during or after.

[RonG]

The surf reject system works well, , what would you have done if you had made it outside under those conditions?

It's tough to get ejected when you really want to go out. I went through it yesterday. After a weekend of stormy, ugly surf, things finally cleaned up yesterday afternoon, but it a lot of it was overhead and short period which didn't mesh well with a relative beginner on a longboard. I made an attempt, but after relentless wall after wall of pounding whitewater I realized it was not going to happen. Turned tail and rode the foam back in - actually paddled just far enough out a few times to catch some whitewater so I could at least get to my feet a few times 6 months ago I probably would have been pig-headed and kept trying, and possibly gotten a good thrashing.

I sat on the beach and surveyed the scene afterwards, and realized
1. 90% of the people out were on shortboards and duckdiving their way out, and
2. had I gotten "lucky" and made it out I would have probably been outmatched by the surf anyway,

But it still stings a bit to have the ocean spit you back out

[surfsadhu]

You may have been unlucky enough to get outside so I ask again what then?

It probably wouldn't have been good. My hope was to catch one wave. I might have made it out if I was in better health. I was recovering from a cold and couldn't breathe efficiently. I was panting like i was in a road race and nearly drowned as it was. Totally stupid that I didn't give up earlier in the session. It was a couple of years ago and I have learned.
I did make it out during Hurricaine Bill a couple of years before that. It was bigger, but longer period and better surface conditions. I made it out on a 7' fish with a combination of timing, throwing the board over the whitewash while swimming under, and dumb luck. Once outside, I tried to paddle into a giant closeout and the guy next to me said, "...you better be ready to man-up if you are going to paddle into those". A discussion ensued amongst those nearby as to whether I should be there or not, with the consensus being I paddled out there and had to get in somehow By then I got the hint paddled and out behind the lineup to watch. It was a good thing because the clean-up sets would routinely take 80% of the line-up. I was scared to try and catch anything so I watched until I had to leave. I got in the same way I got out. I waited for the last wave of a set, paddled behind it as fast as I could, and when a wave would come from behind, I would ditch the board and try to dive under the wave. Did that four times on the way in. Once inside, the shorepound was overhead, and I got worked there, too. I literally crawled out of the surf dragging my board by the leash

I friend I sail with had to rescue a guy the same day, near the same spot. The guy had some previously undiscovered heart condition that caused him to pass out during a hold-down, breathe water, puke, and breathe his puke. My friend and another surfer put him on the board and tried to swim him in through the break. They lost him twice on the way in. Amazingly, the guy survived...but he doesn't surf anymore.

Sorry for the threadjack and wall of text

To try to make it up to OP, I have recently made a personal discovery from SUP: "look down, fall down". When you're unstable on a SUP, if you look down at your board or paddle, you will fall. If your eyes snap up to the horizon, you will ballance in the chop much better and the boards motions will smooth out. Smoother is faster. I've recently tried this when paddling my shortboard and it seems to work well. When paddling for a wave I will look a the horizon over the beach and the board is less wobbly and accelerates quicker to a higher speed. When popping up I try not to look at the board or down the face, but instead down the line, and it seems to make the pop-up better.

[jaffa1949]

The last two posts are great genuine cautionary tales.
Glad you survived to tell us!

[RonG]

The last two posts are great genuine cautionary tales.
Glad you survived to tell us!

And the epilogue is "there's always another wave". I went back out the morning after my afternoon "eject", and it had mellowed to waist to shoulder high, glassy, with better paddle out spots. So erring on the side of caution allowed me to go back have a great session the next day

[jasedrummer]

It can be a slow process....it is for me anyway!
A lot depends on the conditions too....today I was out and for the first hour or so just couldn't get out the back on my minimal....twas tricky, I noticed a few long boarders giving up....
It's also confidence....after a while I thought sod it let's just get out the back anyway.....took a while but I got there....problem was I spent so much time arsing about inside I used all my energy up once I got out the back.....also had to go then as with the family and it started to rain do they wNted to go home. My son is well hooked now though, had him on his first few rides to the shore!!!!
If there's one thin g I've learnt from this more than anything is it takes a lot of time and practice so just enjoy every minute you get to spend in the water and no time spent doing it is wasted- any water time will progress you.

[drowningbitbybit]

today I was out and for the first hour or so just couldn't get out the back on my minimal

Rips, routes, and timing.
They're at least as important as being able to duckdive and/or turtle roll. Learn how to spot and use rips, where the best spot to paddle out is, and the best moment to do it. If you can manage all that, you'll often get out with dry hair

...And if the conditions are bad enough that there is no rip, route or correct time to get out... are you sure you want to be out