Bailout? Or an economic plan that might work!!!

by **parrysurf** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:16 pm

I was checking out the Birk plan....the math is wrong.

This whole bail deal is a mess....wow we are living in some changing times.

**Sponsor**

by **Jimi** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:44 pm

Yeh, I disagree with bailing out AIG too! Just quietly I don't understand why taxpayers should cover the asses of "fatcats"

by **Sar** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:45 pm

parrysurf wrote:
If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do
it...

looks good but a woman who worked for Mcain's (sp) presidential campaign was giving an interview on chanel 4 news. She said that Barack Obama wasnt looking to cut taxes as he said but to redistribute wealth to the finacially poor families in the form of tax credits. She said it as if its the most abhorant thing that could ever be suggested with the look of :shock:

on her face. Honestly, she looked as if the thought of it made her want to puke.

Its my understanding that the fatcats pay for the electoral campaigns in the US in the form of donations- why would they want to piss them off by spreading their money around to the people of the country :evil:

by **drowningbitbybit** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:53 am

So the US mortgage lenders screw up and make some very bad decisions, and then the US (and now looking like the UK too) come along and bail them out.

Can the US government pay me for my bad decisions too? That motorbike I bought in 1991 was rubbish. Damn thing broke down on the way home from buying it. So Mr Bush, PM me, and I'll give you the address to send the cheque to.

Oh, and I really didnt need that last beer on Thursday night, so can you add $4 for that too, please? :roll:

by **Hang11** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:27 am

They've got no choice but to try, but the chances of it working are pretty slim too. The whole US banking system is farked, and if that's farked, most western economies will be write offs as a result.

One thing is for sure, the days of the US being an economic superpower are well and truly over, time for China, India etc to step up. The next couple of decades will be very interesting times for a lot of people.

ROFLPMSL at the fate of all the investment bankers. Couldn't happen to nicer people IMO.

by **RJD** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:27 am

You let a chimp govern the worlds largest ecconomy for 8 years and this is what happens.

by **Milo** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:47 am

Greed boys and girls, only creates poverty. Seems this happens ever 20 years you would have thought the fat cats as you call them, would have learnt that if you want to play a good game you have to play on a level pitch. Greedy bastxxxs :roll:

fools.

by **Jimi** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:19 am

drowningbitbybit wrote:Oh, and I really didnt need that last beer on Thursday night, so can you add $4 for that too, please?

When do you ever need another beer on a Thursday????? I know it's been my downfall for work on friday at least a couple of times!

by **Real Pol** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:26 am

I had a defaulted bank account and some serious debts about 8 years ago due to some stupid financial mistakes I made. Did the government bail me out? No, high interest loans were my only way out. But now it seems I should help out bankers who should actually know better?

by **Sar** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:07 pm

Hang11 wrote:They've got no choice but to try, but the chances of it working are pretty slim too. The whole US banking system is farked, and if that's farked, most western economies will be write offs as a result.

One thing is for sure, the days of the US being an economic superpower are well and truly over, time for China, India etc to step up. The next couple of decades will be very interesting times for a lot of people.

another reason you pointed out that they are determined to bail the economy out....does anyone think that the government want to let the current econminc set up to be a failure and see the chinese one succeed in such a dramatic way, they would loose a lot of face in that to put it mildly. This market set up has been promoted as the best to the developing world for many years, particularly the south american countries :wink:

When my boyfriend had a grumble about an investment banker in his company getting a HUGE bonus whilst he was being made redudant so his job could be exported to india, the response he recieved was 'if you dont like capitalism go and live in cuba' :roll:

Greed boys and girls, only creates poverty. Seems this happens ever 20 years you would have thought the fat cats as you call them, would have learnt that if you want to play a good game you have to play on a level pitch. Greedy bastxxxs fools.

you're absolutely right, greed does create poverty. not just during recessions though Milo. keep in mind that we have been able to enjoy the game not being played on a level pitch for a very long time :wink:

and we really wont be the hardest hit by all of this.

by **libby** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:11 pm

Sar wrote:
you're absolutely right, greed does create poverty. not just during recessions though Milo. keep in mind that we have been able to enjoy the game not being played on a level pitch for a very long time and we really wont be the hardest hit by all of this.

So well said....

by **isaluteyou** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:59 pm

Libby wrote:
Sar wrote:
you're absolutely right, greed does create poverty. not just during recessions though Milo. keep in mind that we have been able to enjoy the game not being played on a level pitch for a very long time and we really wont be the hardest hit by all of this.

So well said....

"the only constant in history is that nothing changes" forget the source...

"the only two certainties is that space is infinite and mans stupitidy, and im not sure about the former" Einstein

If history is any guide or fomula to current affairs things look bleak

The worlds so interconnected now that things rarely happen in isolation the slingshot effect if you like. Personaly i dont see a swift resolution at all any effrts looks like its too little too late. Greed is the catalyst :wink:

by **Milo** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:33 pm

Greed boys and girls, only creates poverty. Seems this happens ever 20 years you would have thought the fat cats as you call them, would have learnt that if you want to play a good game you have to play on a level pitch. Greedy bastxxxs fools.

you're absolutely right, greed does create poverty. not just during recessions though Milo. keep in mind that we have been able to enjoy the game not being played on a level pitch for a very long time :wink:

and we really wont be the hardest hit by all of this.[/quote]

Very true Sar, but the country's that suffer are the result of there own down fall, for not playing fair in there own country to there own people. This is where the help is needed, not just sending rice and grain. Spreading the wealth may help but the people at the top have to learn not to keep it all for themselves. Management is not just a middle class word.

by **Sar** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:41 pm

Milo wrote:[quote/]Greed boys and girls, only creates poverty. Seems this happens ever 20 years you would have thought the fat cats as you call them, would have learnt that if you want to play a good game you have to play on a level pitch. Greedy bastxxxs fools.

you're absolutely right, greed does create poverty. not just during recessions though Milo. keep in mind that we have been able to enjoy the game not being played on a level pitch for a very long time and we really wont be the hardest hit by all of this.

Very true Sar, but the country's that suffer are the result of there own down fall, for not playing fair in there own country to there own people. This is where the help is needed, not just sending rice and grain. Spreading the wealth may help but the people at the top have to learn not to keep it all for themselves. Management is not just a middle class word.[/quote]

******************* - quote buttons gone all funny

I agree in part, i do not think that sending rice and grain will solve the problems - just perpetuate dependancy. I think a redistribution of wealth is required but I do not expect it to happen - ever - at least not willingly by the rich countries. As the global financial climate falls into turmoil the rich countries will keep the wealth on the basis that we need it. Management of the econmiies as you have described is key but that was the idea behind Structual Adjustment Programmes (SAP's):

-this is where the World Bank and the International Moneytary Fund (IMF) lend money to countries but only if they sign up to certain things such as implementing human rights which is a a great idea I think most would agree? (human rights, the much exported idea of individual personal autonomy, known in many countries such as Japan as western selfishness - just because I personally believe in individual personal autonomy it doesnt make it right and is extremly arrogant to export such a view)

-they also often stated counties have to focus their spending on repaying foreign debts - good in principle as only future generations will have to repay it. However, if you spend money on re-paying foreign debts then you have very little to spend on education and healthcare provision. This then means that the children who grow into adults (human capital is the cold word for it) who have to repay that foreign debt are uneducated and unhealthy and so pretty limited in their ability to do so. Overspending on health and education with the money you have borrowed is basically speculate to acumulate, they are investing in the future of the country and the powerful counties have taken that away.

- SAP's will also force countries to focus on exports in order to balance the spending vs the income, good idea? Well it certainly sounds it doesnt it, you cant possibly hope to spend more than you make? However, in order to increase exports they have to devalue their currency, this means that buying in food becomes more expensive so people go hungry. (even the UK is a net importer - we are not self sufficient) In addition to this they have been forced to export goods in order to meet the terms of the SAP - goods that they need!

So this is where I disagre with you, I fully accept that some countries are fleshin' because they fleshin' themselves up. The majority in high power really do want to improve life for the people of the country (eg Bangladesh massively increased spending on social services to 26% of their GDP - comparable to approx 11% spent by countries in similar situations). The point I am trying to make is that there are many macro-economic policies, whilst proposed with good intentions have fleshin' up those countries royally! So saying that countries have screwed themselves over is inaccurate - because we live in a global world more than ever now we have had a big hand in screwing them over, again and again - we have not played fair so are not in a position to criticise those at the top for not playing fair. and even if the powerful did screw over the country, it doesnt mean that we should sit by and say - well you did it to yourself. There are people, just like you and me living in that country. I think to turn you back on it or just blame them all is plain wrong!

We are both fortunate enough to live in the 10% of the worlds population that controls 90% of its wealth - that may well make us the 'fatcats'! - we ARE the people at the top keeping all the money for ourselves. Globally speaking - we are the UPPER class!

In addition much of our wealth has been built on the exploitation of other countries - that should not be forgotten.

I dont think sitting high at they top and blaming 'them', 'they' and 'the people at the top' will get us anywhere. I think the 'fatcats' probably blame the poor for being poor probably believe that they

suffer are the result of there own down fall

I think I have said enough. I really could go on and on with points in relation to this thread - believe me I wanna! (exporting western values such as banning children from work that have very often led to children being exploited more etc etc) but I will spare you all from this - if you managed to get this far.

*steps off soapbox and gets a Grolsch from the fridge*

afternote - SAP's have been modified recently to allow spending on social services.

Libby - Cheers

isaluteyou - I like the einstein quote the best and I wish the world wernt so interconnected - so many people wouldnt be affected my the mistakes of the few.

by **Milo** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:27 pm

Some good points Sar, all taken on board. But to say we ( the people) are to blame in this as well as the decision makers is kind of the same argument that we should apologize to the Africans because of the slave trade.
Powerful people at the top of the ladder are making the decisions that affect the world as a whole. Being born in a rich country does not automatically put the blame on us the peps.
We should all keep our own house in order, and stop going round the neighbours to borrow a cup of sugar

What ever happens, happens. This does happen about every 20 years is it not time the big wigs took note.

by **oldgrom** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:00 pm

A good look at our world history is in order!!!! and before any more stupid decisions are hastely made by anybody we should be looking back to see what worked and what dosent work. Defeniton of insane... Repeating the same action expecting different results.!!! My history has shown when times start heading into the bleak B.S. that is happening mud slinging and fist fights break out (world war).This is not just a U.S. problem this is a huge ripple that will affect the world!!!
I for one would like to hear the explanation of why or what makes a financial company (one that controls monney) need a bailout, sounds to me they didn't manage funds right in the first place. Allso what is making them so important vs me or the likes of me??? Gross mismanagement or political leadership should be held soly responsable. I'm sure if there were severe penaltys placed on this kind of leadership they wouldent be so fast to make mistakes( say salerys,properties,jail,etc.). Funny... I say to people all the time (whenever senate,congress,or the likes etc.) votes themselves for a pay raise it's a joke... Since when do you and co-workers get to just go into work and vote yourselves a pay increase?? Allso more monney usally means one of 2 things Inflation or your kickin azz at your work!!!! So a failure on this scale should mean all parties in govenment ie(president/vice pres,senators/congress, and company involved should forfet all salerys, 100% of it!!!!! Remember they work for us???!!!! And we pay for all they have and do plus a salery!!!!!! Last time I checked if you don't do your job right your fired or surely won't be getting any pay raises. Hmmm how can it be that your the VP of the U.S. and have the U.S. people in your best intrests while running a company like Haliburton???? How do you even have time??? I am still perplexed that I am expected to pay for a gross neglegent F up as this!!!!! I don't see my government paying me for my mistakes!!!!!! As well as a President who has had 8 yrs to get it together and every time the dude spews somthing out it gets worse,,,,, How and the hell can ya even begin to trust that!!!!!!
History shows a resesion on this global sceem, leads to depresion and ???????? If one is to look at the whole big picture we are heading down the spiral and have not hit bottom yet. The Birk plan ha ha my 3 year old does better math than that!!!!! I gues our leadership sees somthing I failed to see If ya keep digging deeper and deeper you'll eventualy pop out the outher side. Be prepared people this is just the tip of the iceburg and it is going to get way way way worse( Funny before I got out of the service they had us doing massive amounts of training for homeland urban warfare, with the advisary we were against being not enemy solders or terroist but average joe's banded together running amuck and was on the premise that major infastructure has been severed!!!!!!!??????? Why???? Don't like this... Not one bit!! Antichrist showing up must be right around the corner!!!

by **Sar** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:50 pm

Thanks Milo, the argument against apologising for slavery is that we wernt even around then, very different to todays situation.

I agree, I dont think we should be blamed for being fortunate enough to live in a rich country. Whilst we blame the rich and the greedy we - living in a rich country, have benefitted greatly from that wealth and greed - therefore follows that many in the world could blame us for being greedy too. -Going back to being the global fatcat thing there.

I think that the policy makers most definately should be held accountable for the mistakes that they make - I attempted to illustrate what a devastating effect bad macro-economic policy can have on individual lives. So I dont discount you point that the bigwigs have a major part to play in all this at all!

I think we should not shirk blame for our own errors of judgement, people who over-relied on credit (myself very much included in that) also helped to fuel the boom and enjoyed it

but are laying blame elsewhere when it has to be paid back and find it isnt possible.

Banks were stupid enough to lend to people that they shouldnt have and got into big big trouble, but many individuals were happy to take the money when it was available!

The credit bubble bursting was predicted a long time ago (at least 7 years ago I remeber the headline, I was 19 and wanted to borrow money to get a car) but 'they' and we all carried on hoping someone else would pick up the tab.

.....Oh yeah the taxpayer is picking up the tab, the very money derived from people that were prudent with their money and people who were reckless with it.

by **flyingvee** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:27 pm

Where will it end? The Russans are getting richer, next the Chinese? The world is slowly turning upside-down

by **oldgrom** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:21 pm

Well I for myself do not borrow what I don't have!!! Or can't outright pay for!! So yes and no all those who took or take monney on credit (honorably or dishonorably) so readily (partly due to want's and greed)not neccicarily needs, can hold a bit of the shame and blame. Yet on the outher hand they are not the ones that were appointed to the leadership position that oversees everybody else!!!! Stocks up-n-down?? Enron??? OIL??? Energy???Banking???? From what Ive see is government has gotten away with lies,F ups,scandals as well as big buisness that yes yes yes "we are all truly the ones to blame" for allowing it to even get this horrad and governments found out a long long time ago the "frog in the pot of watter trick"!!!! Untill the likes of us the lil people join and stand (hop out) saying no more we will all sit in the pot till it boils. HA HA Slavery has not been abolished just opened freely to all !!!! just try not to pay taxes!! were all slaves now!!

by **oldgrom** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:52 am

WHOO HOO !!!! look at how the global market droped in points ($$$$$$) What a bunch of blundering idiots we call leaders!!! Yep it looks to be a long ride on a rough road before it comes close to getting better!!!!!

Bailout? Or an economic plan that might work!!!

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